05 - Postcolonial and Transcultural Perspectives on Travel, Migration, and the Road | with Nadia Butt

00:00:00: I think the one thing people commonly get wrong is that assuming that travel always means adventure.

00:00:07: Now in reality, travel and especially migration voluntary or involuntary can involve both adventure and misadventure.

00:00:16: You know, journeys are shaped by risks obstacles and constraints from borders and bureaucracy to environmental challenges.

00:00:25: And understanding mobility means recognizing both its freedom.

00:00:54: Welcome to Of The Row, a podcast about environmental humanities.

00:00:58: Beyond policy or science we explore meaningful stories and conversations.

00:01:07: Today our guest is Nadja Bhut.

00:01:10: Nadjia Bhut is a professor of global anglophone literatures and cultures at Goethe University in Frankfurt, where she has held this position since two thousand twenty-three years ago.

00:01:20: And previously Nadjya had taught at the university of Gießen as senior lecturer for English and cultural studies.

00:01:27: Before Nadjah was taught in Germany, she studied English and postcolonial literature in Pakistan And Nadja also currently holds the position of Vice President of the GAPS Board, which is a German acronym basically for The Association For Anglophone Post-Colonial Studies.

00:01:45: She's been the general editor and still the General Editor Of Anglophon Post-colonial Studies Which Is A Book Series Published By Heidelberg University Publishing Press.

00:01:56: Nadja has published many articles on migration, travel, transcultural exchange & mobility gender and global Anglophone literature with a particular emphasis on South Asian, African and Arab languages.

00:02:10: But also diasporic literature in Britain America and Canada.

00:02:14: so today's episode will all be about travel migration And the kind of factor that the environment might play In the culture of migration and travel literature.

00:02:25: So Nadja welcome to the podcast and thanks for being here.

00:02:30: Thank you very much my pleasure

00:02:33: Awesome.

00:02:34: Nadia, first question you know since we're going to speak a lot about travel and migration We wanted to start with a very personal and simple question which is what is the most memorable road that you have been on?

00:02:47: Well I've been through several memorable road trips but The most memorable Road Trip i Have Been On was the trip from Lahore To Islamabad.

00:02:58: Islamabad Is the capital city of Pakistan And it's About uh, three hundred eighty kilometer away from Lahore where I was born and grew up.

00:03:08: I was around i think sixteen or seventeen.

00:03:10: at that time we were traveling by car to attend my sister's valima which is the wedding reception.

00:03:19: My father rented a bigger car to accommodate five passengers like my two sisters, brother and myself since our private second hand Suzuki was too tiny for such trip.

00:03:34: He also arranged the driver to drive long distance who is actually an acquaintance!

00:03:40: My mother refused come along as she had some conflicts with the groom's family.

00:03:45: However, she expressed serious concerns when saw the car saying it didn't look roadworthy.

00:03:52: But we set off by noon anyway carrying our elaborate wedding dresses in suitcases safely packed with the boot.

00:04:01: So left early enough so that could be on time for a wedding reception at around five p.m.. So everything seemed fine.

00:04:09: The journey was smooth, enjoyable until we were quite close to Islamabad I think about ten or twenty kilometers away maybe around Mughla Hills.

00:04:20: suddenly the car broke down!

00:04:22: The driver had no idea what happened and my father checked the engine tires water but there is no explanation.

00:04:32: You know, it started to get dark.

00:04:33: There were no mobile phones at that time.

00:04:35: I'm talking about the nineties in Pakistan and we were stranded on a deserted mountainous road for our long-time.

00:04:46: The driver went to seek help And when he came back the car simply had to be pushed by several people before It could finally start again.

00:04:54: The whole process i think took several hours as my father and the driver Had been trying hard to fix the car.

00:05:02: I think we arrived at the hotel, naturally late in the evening.

00:05:09: The groom's family never forgave us.

00:05:22: Now looking back, I realized that the breakdown was caused of course by the old car which were simply not road worthy.

00:05:30: however at the other factory was having a big drown unluckily on remote mountainous road with no nearby service stations.

00:05:41: so despite their disappointment and endless waiting it still turned out to be an unforgettable journey.

00:05:48: Nadia, thanks for sharing this cool story.

00:05:50: It was very fascinating to hear it and also leads the topic of our conversation.

00:05:54: so let's begin!

00:05:56: What got you started working on travel and migration in literature?

00:06:02: First I think... It has to do with my own experience as a traveler between cultures and languages.

00:06:09: You know, since I moved to Germany after completing my MA and MFIL in English and post-colonial literatures in Pakistan... ...I've always felt that i do inhabit a transcultural space which is not only a space of cultural fusions encounters and interactions but also a space for living two cultures at the same time.

00:06:31: Second!

00:06:33: you know, fascinated by the cultural patterns of diasporic communities and transnational lifestyles.

00:06:40: And I became particularly interested in how these experiences are represented and manifested in post-colonial literatures and other media.

00:06:50: so studying these narratives kind of allows me to understand not only multiple modes of movement across space but also the complex ways, identity memory and belonging are negotiated.

00:07:09: Finally I would say you know works of Eric Lee, Paul Hossle Tim Young's as well as Stephen Carsells Sandra Ponsonasi Douglas Massey Hayn Dihas all so deeply inspired me And gave impetus to my research findings.

00:07:28: And what's the one thing people commonly get wrong when they talk about mobility, travel or migration?

00:07:35: I like this question.

00:07:37: Now is you...I think that one things people commonly gets wrong assuming that travel always means adventure.

00:07:46: now in reality travel and especially migration voluntary or involuntary can involve both adventure and misadventure.

00:07:55: You know, journeys are shaped by risks, obstacles and constraints from borders and bureaucracy to environmental challenges.

00:08:05: And understanding mobility means recognizing both its freedom and it's limits.

00:08:12: actually So years ago when I was in high school i read an essay titled Why not stay at home?

00:08:21: published in nineteen twenty-five by Alta Suxley and it was from his travel collection called along the road notes and essays of a tourist.

00:08:30: Now this book contains several essays reflecting on tourism, travel culture and the difference between genuine travelers and typical tourists.

00:08:40: that essay particularly describes tourist, struggling to enjoy themselves.

00:08:49: Somehow that essay made me skeptical and also make me question travel as sheer excitement as the tourist industry tends to portray it.

00:08:59: Hexley primarily suggests sometimes staying at home or reading or imagining places might give more pleasure in understanding than mass tourism.

00:09:10: but Perhaps that essay was in the back of my mind when I later, in my career coined the term The Traveling Imagination and Cross-Cultural Literature which is part of the monograph.

00:09:21: You know i'm currently finalizing and proofreading

00:09:25: Natya!

00:09:25: I love what you said about travel can mean different things for different people And it's not always what it is When filtered through a lens of mass tourism For example.

00:09:37: And in that sense, I also wanted to transition the novels and literature you study and analyze into your research.

00:10:03: But at the same time, they also work as a fundamental requirement for these narratives.

00:10:07: And so I was wondering what their role is as an narrative genre and what do you make possible but also what may be hide or the kinds of restrictions that put on fiction?

00:10:17: Hmm...I think it's very compelling question!

00:10:20: So roads are more than just physical paths.

00:10:25: They shape both what can be told in travel and migration narratives.

00:10:32: They determine routes, pace and encounters so the journey itself shapes the story.

00:10:39: In travel writing roads often organize experiences episodically while in migration narratives they highlight obstacle borders and moments of transition.

00:10:52: At the same time, roads carry symbolic weight.

00:10:56: They can represent freedom connection or transformation but also restriction or danger.

00:11:02: they influence what the narrator can experience and reflect on shaping themes of identity belonging in memory.

00:11:11: I believe roads also affect a genre itself.

00:11:16: They help structure the narrative, link events and embed the journey in social cultural and historical context.

00:11:24: So in short I would say roads actively mediate both movement and storytelling.

00:11:30: they shape not just where people go but how their journeys are experienced and narrated.

00:11:38: Now, in this context one interesting case and point is the travel-come migrant cum road novel How to Read The Air published in two thousand six by Ethiopian American writer Dino Mangesto now In this novel.

00:11:56: The road is not merely a setting but an narrative device that structures memory and identity.

00:12:03: The protagonist retraces a journey once taken by his immigrant parents across the United States and the road becomes medium through which personal history, family trauma and diasporic belonging are revisited and reinterpreted.

00:12:23: A movement along highways and through anonymous landscape mirrors the narrator's attempt to reconstruct fragmented memories, into understand their emotional distances within his family.

00:12:35: So in this sense The Road enables a layered narrative which present travel intersects with remembered or imagined journeys you know?

00:12:43: The route itself becomes framework that links past and present migration return geography memory.

00:12:52: So rather than simply facilitating movement, the road organizes the narrative you know I would say temporally and emotionally allowing this story to unfold through stops detours.

00:13:04: And reflections along the way that's the road in such tax is both material and metaphorical.

00:13:12: so it isn't infrastructure that enables mobility but also a narrative structure shapes how migration, displacement and belonging are told.

00:13:25: And for someone who is a bit unfamiliar with all of the corporates that you're looking at would you say that The Road is seen as more positive thing in travel writing?

00:13:36: As opposed to narratives on migration for example?

00:13:42: Maybe... Road is, I would say positive and negative at the same time.

00:13:47: Positive in a sense that it mirrors the internal working of mind how the person's coming to terms with it And negative in a sensed that the person feels also lost sometime.

00:14:01: It shows like...it becomes symbol.

00:14:03: life as you know..a long journey where You have to struggle with past traumas struggling with the present and looking at the uncertain future.

00:14:15: Okay, yeah I wish i knew a bit more about all of these novels in films that you're looking at but uh...I know from reading some of your work.

00:14:23: it's very after terminological distinctions like being clear what kind language one uses whether its travel or migration ah..whether it is nomadism for example there are all kinds of terminological differences One should look at when we talk about something as broad, this movement or mobility.

00:14:43: So I was wondering if you make a difference between the terms journey and route?

00:14:47: And If so why?

00:14:48: that difference matters in what it consists of?

00:14:52: Yes i would say that um root is the actual path to take.

00:14:57: You know The physical roads.

00:14:59: streets are trails That connect points A&B.

00:15:03: A journey on the other hand is experience of travelling along that route.

00:15:09: It includes events, encounters and reflections.

00:15:16: The difference matters because in narratives, whether travel writing or migration stories the route sets the possibilities and limitations.

00:15:25: But the journey is what gives a story meaning.

00:15:27: so two people can take the same route but have very different journeys depending on their perspective purpose or experiences.

00:15:35: So understanding this distinction helps us see how travel and migration narratives are not just about movement the lived, remembered and imagined experiences of that movement.

00:15:49: So in this regard Ruth Braver Jabwala's novella Travelers published in nineteen seventy three And Anita decides travel narrative.

00:15:59: travel novel Journey to Ethka Published in nineteen ninety five provide particularly illuminating examples as they vividly illustrate The interplay between roots and journeys.

00:16:13: So in travelers, the physical routes taken by western seekers moving through India between cities ashrams and spiritual centers remain relatively similar.

00:16:24: Yet their journeys they experience differ widely.

00:16:29: what shapes narratives is not merely paths that follow but expectations disillusionment shifting perceptions of spirituality.

00:16:41: So the same route thus produces multiple often conflicting journeys.

00:16:47: A similar dynamic appears in Journey to Ethka, where that geographical movement across countries and spiritual sides constitutes the root.

00:16:57: but the deeper narrative lies in three main characters internal transformations namely Mateo his wife Sophie and Mateos Guru called The Mother.

00:17:08: The search for spiritual fulfillment, the tensions between devotion and skepticism.

00:17:14: And the evolving relationships between their characters turn that root into catalysts for personal and philosophical journeys.

00:17:25: so in both tags distinction between route and journey highlights how travel narratives move beyond geography.

00:17:34: while Roots map physical movement, journeys reveal the subjective emotional and intellectual experiences that give travel its narrative depth.

00:17:48: The examples you just gave are examples of travel writing.

00:17:51: is that correct?

00:17:52: Yes.

00:17:54: Could you tell us a bit more about differences or maybe also similarities between travel writing and narratives of migration which I know you write both.

00:18:03: Sure So travel writing and migration narratives, of course lab because both deal with movement encounters.

00:18:11: And experiences across space.

00:18:14: they often explore identity culture and memory and Both can reflect on the challenges and insights off being On The Move.

00:18:22: to use a phrase by Tim Criswell They differ in purpose an orientation.

00:18:29: so travel writing usually focuses on the journey toward destination and often carries the idea of return.

00:18:36: The traveler goes somewhere, learns it comes

00:18:39: back.".

00:18:40: In this context I will give an example.

00:18:43: looking for Transwanderland travels in Nigeria is a twenty-twelve nonfiction travel memoir by British Nigerian author Nusara Viva which she returns to Nigeria after having grown up in Britain.

00:19:02: The narrative follows the movement to different Nigerian cities and landscapes as she reflects on culture, politics in everyday life.

00:19:12: Although the journey is also personal especially given her father's legacy and the complexities of diaspora... ...the narrative remains rooted in the conventions of travel writing observation encounter and reflection.

00:19:29: during a temporary visit The traveler moves through space, interprets them and eventually departs maintaining the structure of outward journey in return.

00:19:42: Migration narratives in contrast are oriented towards settlement.

00:19:46: The focus is on establishing a new life adapting and negotiating belonging in a new place.

00:19:54: A compelling example is the novel The Namesake published American Bengali Indian writer.

00:20:04: The novel illustrates this dynamic through the story of that Ganguly family who moved from India to the United States, I think around a time eighties and nineties.

00:20:17: so rather than focusing on a temporary journey then narrative explores long term process migration you know building home raising children between cultures and negotiating identity across generations.

00:20:33: So the novel traces both immigrant parents, their American-born son Gogol how they experience belonging displacement and cultural hybridity over time.

00:20:45: Here movement is not a brief episode but lifelong defining transformation that shapes family relationships, identity and memory.

00:20:56: So while both genres deal with movement travel writing emphasizes temporary exploration and migration narratives emphasize long-term transformation and integration.

00:21:12: I would say

00:21:15: now we would like to explore the some of the factors that can affect.

00:21:23: How is the relationship between road infrastructure and mobility or travel negotiated in the body of work you consider?

00:21:30: Can you give us two, three examples on how this relationship informs your working thinking.

00:21:36: Sure so um... In both travel writing and mobility narratives roads that infrastructure are more than backdrops.

00:21:48: they actively shape movement and experience.

00:21:51: You know

00:21:51: the two road novels, Soul Tourist by British Nigerian author Bernadine Avaristo and Travelling with Jinn published in three.

00:22:02: By British Sudanese writer Jamal Mahjoub are the most striking examples.

00:22:07: so In The Magic Realist Realist Road Novels Soul Tourists road travel across Europe becomes a way of revisiting hidden histories of the African diaspora.

00:22:23: As two protagonists, Stanley and Jesse move through highways cities national borders infrastructure such as roads border crossing and checkpoints structures their mobility.

00:22:39: These spaces regulate who moves easily and who is scrutinized, reminding the reader that mobility in Europe is historically and racially uneven.

00:22:52: The journey along modern roads is repeatedly interrupted by encounters with historical figures from the black European past which symbolically overlay contemporary infrastructure.

00:23:08: So in this way, the road network becomes both a literal route and narrative device that connects present mobility with suppressed historical roots of migration.

00:23:20: And displacement I may add itself is very interesting novel.

00:23:26: as you are reading You really feel like being on the road because author uses not just chapter titles in words, but she uses road signs.

00:23:39: So you literally feel your on the roads.

00:23:41: so I do recommend reading this novel.

00:23:44: It's Soul Tourist published in two thousand and five by Bernadine Avaristo.

00:23:54: okay

00:23:54: noted thanks

00:23:55: wonderful yeah it is really a novel i recommend strongly.

00:24:01: The next road novel also similar, traveling with gins but of course has a very different trajectory.

00:24:07: Infrastructure like roads checkpoints border post and ferry crossings again play central role in shaping the experience or movement across Europe.

00:24:20: So as the protagonist Yasin Zaheer travels with his young son Leo in a car through different cities of Europe, their journey unfolds along border crossings that structure both the pace and direction of travel.

00:24:35: But these infrastructures reveal.

00:24:42: So while some borders within Europe appear relatively open, others not highlighting again deeper historical and geopolitical divisions.

00:24:54: At this point I would also like to point out that the protagonist is of Sudanese origin And he notices as a person of colour.

00:25:04: He experiences very different Europe.

00:25:08: That distinct experience captures in this road trip.

00:25:15: So the road thus becomes more than a means of transport, it functions as a space where questions of identity belonging and heritage emerge.

00:25:27: The movement along modern transport networks prompts reflections on the author's own mixed Sudanese British background And on the broader histories migration and colonial connection that link Europe in Africa.

00:25:42: So, in this way infrastructures mediates both physical mobility and narrative reflection shaping how the journey is experienced and narrated.

00:25:54: so In both these examples infrastructure sort of makes us reflect on the relationship between environment and mobility.

00:26:04: Roads, checkpoints, borders determine not only the routes travelers can take but also encounters, delays and reflections that emerge along the way.

00:26:16: So consequently infrastructure becomes an active force in shaping the narrative of travel and migration revealing how movement through space is always embedded in social historical and political infrastructures.

00:26:35: And what about the environment as part?

00:26:38: To what extent are environmental factors like deserts, seas, heat and cold treated as part of what makes certain routes possible or deadly?

00:26:50: Environmental factors are central to shaping routes.

00:26:54: Yes, desert sees extreme heat or cold determine which parts are physically possible.

00:27:02: You know, travel and migration narratives often highlight these conditions as obstacles or tests of endurance.

00:27:13: They influence pacing timing And even the choice of route making that environment an active force in the story of movement For example In The Refugee Nevala called Hope & Other Dangerous Pursuits published in two thousand and three by American Moroccan writer Laila Lalami.

00:27:35: The sea becomes a possessive environmental factor shaping the migration route from Morocco to Spain across the Strait of Gibraltar, you know that refugee characters attempt their dangerous crossing on small inflatable boat where they see is not simply as setting but alive threatening.

00:27:56: barrier weather conditions, waves and the instability of the vessel make this journey unpredictable.

00:28:05: The sea thus determines both possibility and parallel route so it offers only path towards Europe for undocumented migrants yet also exposes them to drowning abandonment.

00:28:20: In this way, the narrative highlights how environmental conditions combine with political borders to create roots that are simultaneously hopeful and dangerous.

00:28:34: There's one scene from the novel.

00:28:38: There is one scene where the refugees are in a boat and suddenly, human smuggler says well you all have to now swim for at least twenty kilometers.

00:28:51: The woman is in water and she cannot swim.

00:28:56: And then her son tries to make her swim.

00:28:59: so it was a very heart-wrenching moment, you know?

00:29:03: It also shows how sometimes environment simply against you or that the infrastructure suddenly becomes your enemy.

00:29:12: A different but equally significant environmental dynamic appears on the travel novella which also got a Booker Prize.

00:29:21: It's called Heat and Dust, published in nineteen seventy-five by Ruth Paravar Jabwala who is the writer of German Jewish origin whom you know escaped Nazi Germany moved to Britain then married an Indian man.

00:29:35: move to India.

00:29:36: she started writing novels about India In which heat plays always fundamental role.

00:29:43: So here this novel.

00:29:44: The Heat & Climate Of Colonial India you know, shape both movement and perception.

00:29:51: So the intense heat dust and seasonal rhythms influence how characters travel where they stay.

00:30:02: Long journeys across dusty roads and remote areas reveal the physical and psychological strain of the environment, while oppressive climate also reflects cultural and emotional tensions within narratives.

00:30:16: So in this sense heat-and-dust function not merely as background conditions but environmental forces that shape the pace of travel, moods and encounters that occur along the route.

00:30:29: So these two very different novels I would say demonstrate that environmental factors such as seas, heat and landscapes do more than frame travel.

00:30:39: They actively structure the risks possibilities in meanings of the roots themselves making their environment a crucial agent.

00:30:57: Nadia, I want to get into the notion of freedom.

00:31:02: Travel writing is often about freedom and it's usually experienced by subjects who have the possibility to enjoy unrestricted travel due their skin color or race, passports nationality what they look like etc.. You know, some of these narratives that you look at in particular stories off migration show what travel writing frequently hides or stuff.

00:31:29: That slows travel down In a sense like not enough money for fuel policing borders labor checkpoints and environmental exposure to all kinds of hazards.

00:31:41: And What ways does?

00:31:43: Do stories Of migration have A different perspective on freedom that is so often central To travel writing?

00:31:51: So travel writing often presents mobility as freedom, adventure or self-discovery emphasizing the thrill of moving through space unimpeded.

00:32:04: Migration narratives in contrast reveal the obstacles and precarity that such portrayals frequently hide.

00:32:12: so in Nigerian author Helen Habila's novel Travelers published in two thousand and nine, set against the so-called refugee crisis in Europe.

00:32:22: In that novel characters face policy bureaucracy and the constant uncertainty of refugee life.

00:32:30: So borders are not simply lines on a map but sites of control labor exploitation and legal precariousness all of which constrain movement.

00:32:43: So the characters who leave home imagining that they might, you know experience freedom or they will become free face a world which restricts their travel and mobility just because they happen to be refugees.

00:32:59: So Helena Habila's novel foregrounds the material and political dimensions of travels.

00:33:05: so checkpoints documentations environmental explosions and colonial histories, how they repeatedly slow or redirect the refugees' path.

00:33:17: You know also in this novel C plays a role – The Mediterranean where again a woman, refugee women loses her memory is traumatized and then again rescued.

00:33:28: so just like in La La La Lami's Hope Another Dangerous Pursuit see against surfaces as an important light motive.

00:33:39: So unlike the often romanticized depictions in traditional travel literatures, these narratives highlight the ways in which mobility is mediated by power structures and social hierarchies.

00:33:52: Environmental conditions like a harsh weather unsafe routes exposure to risk see they all shape the experience of movement, sort of demonstrating that journeys are not merely about reaching a destination but negotiating hazards along the way.

00:34:12: So migration narratives like travelers reveal that travel is never neutral and by the way it's interesting that travelers also... The novel Travelers shows that sometimes travel narrative come together because these refugees on the one hand are migrants but at the same time they're travelers and Habibah chooses to call them not refugees, but travelers.

00:34:41: So I think this is one novel that blurs the clear-cut distinction between travel writing or travel narratives and migration narratives.

00:34:51: so coming back to the idea of freedom... so freedom against borders, political authority historical legacies and environmental conditions making mobility a complex contingent.

00:35:06: And I would say sometimes dangerous experience rather than you know long adventure.

00:35:15: And just you know Joberton i have had the pleasure of listening to talk about yours year-and-a-half ago at this point where you spoke about two films and, um... You sort of made the case that- And this is getting back to Automobility which both Jobert and I work a bit on.

00:35:32: So then we wanted to ask about Automobilty as well.

00:35:37: Um..You make the case in your presentation.

00:35:43: Proposal then where you made the case that quote, The discourse of automobility in this South Asian context is fundamentally different from the Western or American one.

00:35:52: And further that automobilty becomes a trope of transgressions and transformations as women in those films travel in a truck As a symbol of

00:36:02: hope.".

00:36:05: Could you tell us more about how the social cultural and geographic context Of two films we discussed shape what's possible And also the limitations and risk of travel for these characters in films.

00:36:20: Sure, so my paper I examined a Pakistani film doctor translated as daughter And the Bollywood Film Highway, to explore how mobility especially automobility is deeply shaped by social cultural and geographical context in South Asia.

00:36:39: It's very interesting that both films were released in two thousand fourteen um...and both are road films but they show completely different gender gendered trajectories, I would say.

00:36:52: So in Dukhtar our daughter the journey follows Alarakhi a young mother and her daughter her nine or ten year old daughter Zainab through the mountainous and rural regions of northern Pakistan you know which is like uh-which have the culture of their own.

00:37:08: it's like world within a world.

00:37:11: So the physical terrain, steep roads, isolated villages and rugged landscapes.

00:37:17: It creates both obstacles and opportunities so that mother escapes with a daughter.

00:37:21: when father agrees to marry her off to an elderly tribal leader who settled in old feud The mother has no choice but stop a truck to take her daughter to Lahore.

00:37:33: For Alaraki & Zanab ,the truck provides speed and protection.

00:37:38: But the journey is fraught with risks from social norms, you know policing and the possibility of being intercepted by powerful men or local authorities.

00:37:49: Automability here.

00:37:50: it's not just a means of transport I would argue It is tool of transgression Allowing characters to temporarily escape rigid patriarchal structures while exposing them To new dangers.

00:38:07: In highway, we have a very different travel trajectory.

00:38:10: The story follows upper class woman young women Vera who is deeply unhappy with her upcoming arranged marriage.

00:38:18: So by chance, just before her wedding she's abducted and later travels across diverse urban and rural landscapes in India with an abductor.

00:38:28: With whom she falls in love.

00:38:29: And of course the movie shows the Stockholm syndrome.

00:38:33: so The journey is structured by cultural and class dynamics as Vera moves from captivity to relative freedom.

00:38:40: The truck affords her a sense of autonomy and privacy, shielding her from following social norms such as following her parents.

00:38:48: And later the husband.

00:38:50: but it also highlights vulnerabilities such as dependence on the driver in exposure to unfamiliar environments.

00:38:59: So the geography, you know highways connecting distant towns and villages sort of creates both the potential for exploration.

00:39:07: For exploring the self and surroundings I would say from a very new angle.

00:39:12: so Vera after this journey realizes what she actually wants in life namely to set up her business not get married.

00:39:20: The journey like daughter where little girl is saved these journeys To turn out to be a life-changing experience.

00:39:29: So in both films, the social and cultural context particularly gender class And local power structures you know shapes with shapes what mobility affords.

00:39:40: so auto mobility is is a means or vehicle for hope, self-discovery and temporary agency.

00:39:48: But again it's never neutral.

00:39:50: It mediates access safety and race showing that in the South Asian context travel always negotiated through landscape infrastructure and social hierarchies rather than simply offering unbounded freedom.

00:40:09: Great!

00:40:09: And you have an You know, you don't have to answer this question as sort of off the cuff.

00:40:13: But I read an article by yours called Walking As A Gendered Practice about Henry James's novel Daisy Miller and there you also speak.

00:40:25: You know partakes in can be an act of self-determination which and the context of this article for example is In a case of women who?

00:40:39: Can make the choice to walk in an environment where that Is not to be expected of woman?

00:40:44: I was wondering if you could say A few more words about maybe in your in Your research in general.

00:40:51: The kinds Of what.

00:40:54: how can movements be an act of self-determination or self liberation, in a sense.

00:40:58: And as something against the established order which you know usually I mean roads are the very expression off a system and away right?

00:41:07: But then how do choose to use those very infrastructures?

00:41:11: can't be aware going again that kind of political and cultural assumptions sometimes come with these systems.

00:41:18: Right!

00:41:21: I must say it has lot to do.

00:41:23: my personal background I'll go back to my time in Lahore when i was a young woman studying at the university and, My biggest problem was everyday mobility.

00:41:39: We had an infrastructure so that buses weren't working.

00:41:42: you have to wait very long for small taxis.

00:41:48: My parents had sold their car, so there were huge issues with mobility.

00:41:54: And I feel that idea as a woman and being immobile... Now in Pakistan women can ride bikes or motorbikes but at the time when I was there in the nineties it wasn't the case!

00:42:07: That idea stayed with me for so long.

00:42:10: Being mobile means to assert yourself.

00:42:13: And you know, being mobile means independence.

00:42:16: it could be even transgression because there are restrictions on my mobility.

00:42:19: like before dark You have to be home.

00:42:21: A woman in Pakistani society won't see her rooming around eight o'clock all alone On a road.

00:42:26: So these things I think shape dramatically My imagination of travel Woking and mobility.

00:42:33: so i tend To take this particular stance Of moving through moving freeing Yourself.

00:42:43: It's cool to hear that you're so invested in the topic.

00:42:46: So for our audience, what one text would be a novel or movie?

00:42:50: You wish everyone read and watched to think about migration?

00:42:57: So texts come to my mind.

00:43:04: Of course, it's always hard to pick a single text so let me think if I should choose, lets say Kamala Shamsi's Burned Shadows from two thousand and nine or shall i pay Kiran Desai's The Inheritance of Lost in Two Thousand And Sixth?

00:43:25: Okay!

00:43:29: This particular novel explores the complex effects of colonialism, identity and displacement in post-independence Kenya.

00:43:40: Showing how migration shapes both personal lives and broader social and political structures.

00:43:47: So it also reveals movement is never just physical.

00:43:51: It's intertwined with history belonging And ethical and emotional consequences.

00:43:59: Reading these particular novels helps to understand migration, not as a single event but an ongoing negotiation of place identity and community.

00:44:11: I believe this novel encourages new perspectives within migration studies engaging with concepts such as trans-migration which is put forward by Nina Dlichschiller ETAL with our other Linda Barsch defined by Naika Foronton and Iroh Lildis.

00:44:35: So this is one novel where even when somebody says, what's your favorite novel?

00:44:39: I tend to mention MG Vasanji.

00:44:43: Great!

00:44:44: Thank you so much Natya for these wonderful insights into the transnational and transcultural perspective on travel writing migration in literature.

00:44:54: Yeah thanks very much for being here.

00:44:57: Thank you very much.

00:44:58: It was a pleasure, in fact your questions have given me a lot of food for thought.

00:45:02: so many thank to Roberto and Yanis for your

00:45:10: efforts.